Transaction Credits on Refunds Fees - After March 1, 2020, Shopify will no longer return this fee?!

[Newbie_Seller]

Dear Shopify Community and Experts,

Shopify has always been crediting back transaction fees if a store owner makes a full refund to a customer - same procedure with many or probably all other payment processors including the greedy Paypal!!

That said, all of a sudden today January 20th, 2020 - we are receiving a notification from shopify indicating that Shopify will no longer be returning the fees as of March 1st, 2020 (see image at the bottom of this message, i have also put the text version of the email just in case)......my understanding here means if you refund an order to a customer, shopify will still charge you a transaction fee!! 

Questions

1. Has anyone / everyone received this email notifying that there will be this so called "Update on refund policy"?

2. In this shopify email regarding this new upcoming change, Shopify has put a link to its called "Shopify Terms of Service" - https://www.shopify.com/legal/terms?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=support&utm...

no where there is a mention of transaction credit on refunds specific.....everything is general about "transaction fees"

3. Isn't this stealing in day light? i mean how would shopify start charging transaction fees to store owners if nothing is sold (fully refunded to a customer)? There are many legitimate reasons why refunds are being made but the most common ones is "high risk transactions" (we have tools to analyze transactions and sometimes you see a bunch of things that do not make sense in a customer order.....history of fraud, billing address does not match credit card address e.t.c)

Would appreciate shopify experts and community to provide more insights on this......we do feel this is some kind of an attempt for shopify to get store owners to use their shopify payments processor (which we are not using - we are on paypal), and probably message is sent to specific stores not everyone else!! We do a lot of refunds because we have been attacked by scammers lately very intensively, therefore we are very keen on our orders!!

Text version of email here:

Dear XXXXXX,

We are making changes that will go into effect after March 1, 2020, including a change to our current Shopify Terms of Service that may affect you.

Upcoming changes:

• We discovered a mistake we made with your account: When you process a refund, we have been paying you back your original transaction fee despite our terms of service saying that this won’t happen. We won’t be asking for any money back and unlike many payment processors, we won’t charge an additional fee to process a refund. After March 1, 2020, we will no longer return this fee. This is consistent with our existing Shopify Terms of Service that you agreed to already.

If you have any questions about these changes, please don’t hesitate to get in touch with us.

Thanks,
Shopify Support

© Shopify, 150 Elgin Street, Ottawa ON, K2P 1L4 Shopify.MailID:1-1.5e25cf18.6433354.5936ff5ef8b88ec7fd1b41bfe178b0d5

[megandeleeuw]

I think we need to make sure the media knows that shopify is actively hurting small businesses by continuing to not refund credit card fees given the COVID-19 situation...especially for small businesses or nonprofits under a certain gross amount. 

If anyone is interested, I could draft a press release. Email me to tell me your story and I can start gathering info: megan.deleeuw@macd.org. We are a local government entity but function as a small nonprofit since our funding comes from an annual tree sale. I think we could get some press from a list of small businesses and nonprofits hurting from Shopify's decision and refusal to help.

Alternatively, what a great marketing plug for them if they were to refund and retract their March 1st change and delay it until 2021 to help small business!

[Katchen_Gerig]

I think it is more of a Stripe issue and even more so, a credit card charge
issue. Shopify uses Stripe and Stripe just started not refunding Stripe
fee on refunds. Here is the explanation from Stripe...

*Stripe info on their site about refunds*

*There are no fees to refund a payment, but Stripe’s fees on the original
payment will not be returned in case of a refund.*

*A large portion of the underlying cost of payment processing is driven by
fees assessed by banks and payment networks (like Visa and Mastercard).
These networks set rules about which fees apply for refunded payments, and
in many cases banks and card networks keep the entire upfront cost of a
refunded transaction. For some regions and payment types, refunded payments
also incur additional fees.*

*We aim to make our pricing simple and transparent, and our standard fees
include access to a variety of features like fraud protection, reporting,
and other tools for managing your payments. To address these underlying
payment processing costs and continue providing these services as part of
our standard pricing, Stripe does not return our fees when a payment is
refunded.*

[megandeleeuw]

This clarification is good and necessary however, I would still put the responsibility on Shopify.

As a customer using Shopify, I see under payment providers a list of credit cards or payment options I can select to allow my customers to use or not. I do not see Stripe or any breakdown of details beyond the range that each payment provider uses. More transparency is definitely needed. 

For the short term though, Shopify is the business that I am directly interacting with as a customer and I have no contact with Stripe so doesn't make sense for me to directly target them. 

[1bhkinteriors]

As far as I can see there are two different fees here - the credit card or
payment gateway fees, and Shopify fees. The issue being discussed is the
Shopify fees so Stripe's policies are not relevant.

[JewelersRow]

I am just finding out about this change this week, and I am severely disappointed. We use Shopify to process e-com orders which are infrequent but individually significant. We already pay a ton for Shopify Plus yet now we'll incur thousands in extra fees per year for refunds. 

What's really disgusting is the way they framed this as 'their mistake' and that they should have been doing this all along -- that is complete garbage. I have been emailing with Support over the course of two days. They provide the same canned repose and point me to the Indemnification and Chargeback sections of their TOS, which happens to have a generic sentence at the end about not refunding fees, however, the preceding paragraphs (and topic as a whole) are all related Claims resulting from Chargebacks and disputes, not refunds issued through the normal course of business. 

I plan to file a claim with the FTC, that's probably the best thing any of us can do. I think the fact that this isn't actually stated in the terms, yet they are representing that it is, is false and misleading. 

[ampman]

I would not mind the federal government getting involved to make this
practice illegal. I just had someone, on another platform but with PayPal,
make a $3,000 purchase on eBay and then return it claiming it was purchased
by a family member with dementia. So i will lose $50 in shipping costs,
$100 in PayPal fees, plus probably get back an opened product.

However the end result of making this practice illegal will be higher
processing fees. That's what this is really all about, everyone wants to
advertise the lowest rate

[kylemarshallx]

We should be flooding their customer support team with complaints about this issue. When they inevitably say they can't help you other than to pass along your feedback, let them know you'll be leaving negative feedback on the customer service experience.

Additionally, you can email the CEO directly to let him know this is unacceptable: tobi@shopify.com

Consider including the following:

1. If this is an unavoidable change in Stripe's terms, you should find a new merchant provider or banking partner that doesn't charge these return fees.

2. If this is not resolved soon, I will be moving my online business to Squarespace where they do return fees on refunds.

[tyealia]

paypal also implemented this. its getting harder and harder to co. pete against amazon as a small retailer. I sell large items that are frequently refunded these are 1700 items and people cancel. now it costs me $50 to refund. I am considering closing my store down and just doing affiliate marketing, this is getting unsustainable

[dpd1]

File a report with FTC and tell them your story. That’s the only hope.

[VickyFuff]

I'm a new member and found this post because this happened to me today.

Shopify flagged my first order and I returned the payment to the customer. The customer provided me with the information to prove that what was entered was correct. Even with apologizes and a sales deal, I lost that sale. Hours later, I see I'm being charged a return fee for the order they incorrectly flagged. 

I have contacted Shopify but I doubt they will do anything regarding this matter.

So now I assume I must take every order that is flagged as I would be paying more money to return items that aren't processed. This is ridiculous and not good business practice on Shopify's end. This is a practice to process all order, regardless if they are flagged as suspicious or fraudulent. 

[bmarkoe]

I'm new to shopify and was thinking about migrating my current website. One reason, I wanted to get away from PAYPAL, who is also not refunding fees as of 1/2020. For me It means a significant amount coming out of my pocket into theirs. Particularly a problem if an item isn't in stock or an order is cancelled. I have found NO transparency on shopify's information that they keep these fees, I've had to resort to the forum. I think ALL of these companies are cheating small businesses. Sadly, I guess I won't be moving to Shopify.  I believe Square returns fees. 

[Blueibear]

This just happened to me.  I was hit with a string of fraudulent charges in a row.  I refunded them all in order to avoid charge backs, but then noticed Shopify was trying to withdraw more money than they had deposited into my account.  After inquiring, I was told about this new policy.  I think this is completely outrageous, especially considering that after looking into the matter, most of these fees are refunded by the credit card companies.  Shopify is intercepting these returned fees.  Shopify tries to place the blame on the credit card companies, but they are lying.  Now, if the issue is with Stripe keeping the fees, then Shopify needs to be upfront about that, and either move to a new company that does not do this, or remove their 2% penalty fee they charge us when we choose to not use Shopify Payments. My small struggling business cannot take these extra unexpected charges.  What if I get another string of fraudulent charges that are even larger next time.  This could cost me hundreds of dollars.  No thanks.  Shopify is losing a customer because of this.

[aj007]

As has been noted in this thread already, processing a refund may cost Shopify/Stripe/card companies a tiny bit of money - likely pennies, certainly not a percentage. 

The US Federal Trade Commission has the power to force these companies to only charge a reasonable (and preferably fixed) cost. They've lowered costs for retailers before, e.g. https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/plain-language/bus78-new-rules-electronic-payments-lower-...

So contact the FTC, your Member of Congress, your Senator, the business media outlets... and explain how unfair and extortionate this is. Sticking up for small businesses wins votes, and this is an election year in the US.

[dpd1]

Yes, complaining to FTC is the best advice. I’ve already done so. Everyone should. Don’t even waste your time talking to Shopify drones… They’ll just make excuses

[RDCP]

Canceled a customers transaction in less than 15 min due to fraud and Shopify nailed me for $207. Frustrated and looking out for other options at this point.

[dpd1]

Until you find another processor or platform, try switching to manual capture. At least then you can avoid anything that happens before shipping.

[LastMileSF]

This is insane. I can't believe this is not illegal. 

[Devinir]

Because of this inconvenience everyone should switch over to wix and cancel their Shopify account because this is absurd 

[Katchen_Gerig]

Wix also uses Stripe on the back end and this is a fee imposed by Stripe.

[bmarkoe]

I think I posted earlier in this game when I was researching website options, but I believe SQUARE does refund %fee but not the .30. I've switch to square from PAYPAL, for the same reason, on my new site. Obviously didn't go with shopify, and of course SQUARE can change at anytime as well.  I did start a 3% restocking fee on my returns, you can imagine THAT went over well. I think we have a potential class action here, and YES complain to your state and the FCC. Outrageous. 

[ChaCustoms]

I agree this is 100% not fair. What is stopping Shopify from employing a bunch of people to make fraudulent charges to up our fees. Not that they would do that but that possibility makes this very unfair. Ive had more fraud orders than normal orders . I am new . Hopefully they change this 

[FatRich]

Filed a complaint with the FTC. Will send this dude tobi an email as well. This is BS. 

They're meant to help small business get ahead but they dig a deeper hole for us instead.

[quinnythepoo]

I sold an item for $11,000 on my shopify account.  Then shopify suggested the sale was probably fraudulent, and if I chose to go through with the sale,

they would hold my funds for 120 days.  I get that, we have to be cautious.  I immediately cancelled the transaction and refunded the payment.

Then, I was charged $319 for the transaction fees (but there was no transaction after I cancelled it).

As far as I'm concerned, this is borderline criminal.  I can't imagine how this is acceptable.  I have other items even more expensive than that one.

I'm very seriously considering leaving as this is an unacceptable policy.

[dpd1]

Sounds like you are doing big one-off sales of unique items, so in your case, I would definitely turn off the auto capture pref. This way you would have to manually go in and choose to capture the payment at the last minute before shipping on each sale. When you do that, you shouldn’t be charged the fee if you cancel before it has been captured. Technically you have not received the money before capture. The sad truth is, this garbage policy will probably become standard in the industry, so you’ll get it most places. If you followed this election, the courts and regulators clearly don’t give a crap about average people and will just ignore us.

[lintriago]

Significant tax breaks for whom??  Unless you're a billionaire or corporation, you got screwed by Paul Ryan's tax plan. 

Sigh... Unbelievable how anybody in their right mind can support this buffoon who is responsible for the raging pandemic....  

[happyerica]

yes, it is not fair and reasonable policy. 

[bigmonster]

Shopify isn't doing anything illegal, they're simply pocketing the money by offering a Bundled Pricing Structure (shopify payments) vs Pass-Through Pricing

https://www.cardfellow.com/blog/credit-card-refund-fees/

Shopify simply knows some small business owners will educate themselves and try to use a 3rd party processor, which is why they charge a .5%-2% fee when you go outside shopify payments. Ultimately, they're going to make money either way, it comes down to what makes sense for the small business owner: stay on Shopify and chalk it up as a cost of doing business, or switch to a platform like BigCommerce that allows you to use your own 3rd party processor and charges you nothing for this. 

Most of us don't spend the 30min-1hr to educate ourselves and simply hand money over to these SAS giants.

I found a great deal of help on cardfellow.com. Very transparent information about the whole Processing industry. 

https://www.cardfellow.com/blog/credit-card-processing-guide/

[sumiruna]

Shows the true nature of the decision-makers in Shopify...  a total lack of care and consideration for the difficult times most are experiencing.

Many businesses are struggling due to COVID, whereas Shopify is making a killing due to being an online provider.

Shopify has just completely lost my respect and demonstrated to all their loyal customers that they are just another bunch of disgusting and greedy *****s

[JoeTopping]

Hi, I've just received this email this week and I came online to see if anyone else had received it - but I saw your post was from a year ago. Did you ever resolve this?

[Ben1992]

Hello, I have only received it myself too. It's an utter disgrace. Covid
has meant we no longer do POS sales and only online, our refunds have gone
through the roof.

Additionally, the issues I have faced with inventory problems (because of
shopify) have added to my need for refunds, but do they apologise? No. They
are conmen. Utterly corrupt and as soon as I can move from this platform I
will.

I was one of the first UK customers and have paid thousands and thousands
to them to only be treated with contempt.

They don't appreciate their customers, we are just here to be drained dry.

[MadspeedUms]

I got the email too a few days ago (Email below). I am new to shopify, only been 2 months. I got really worried as i spent a lot of money to build my shopify site. I contacted shopify support and they said it is a phishing email address as the email address the email is sent from is 'email@email.shopify.com'. This is not their email and their email is @Shopify.com. They also confirmed that they do refund transaction fees when a refund is made. I dont know whether to believe them or not. I will wait until May 10th to know for sure. I will make a purchase from my own store after this date and refund myself and see if the transaction fees are refunded back to me. This is the only way i will be able to tell for sure. Or if anyone knows already that this is a bogus email and that shopify is refunding transaction fees, please let me know. It would be much appreciated.

Personally I am thinking they would not implement a refund policy like this as they will lose so many customers. I will leave shopify 100% if they are doing this for real.

We are making changes to your Shopify Store, that will go into effect on May 10, 2021, including a change to our current Shopify Payments Terms of Service.

Upcoming changes:

• We will no longer return the original transaction fee collected when a refund is processed. This is consistent with our existing Shopify Terms of Service and unlike other payment processors, we will not charge an additional fee for processing a refund.

For more information on getting paid with Shopify Payments, please visit our Help Center.

If you have any questions about these changes, please don’t hesitate to get in touch with us.

Thanks,
Shopify team

[fcommisso]

Does any one else not see how this is completely weaponizable ... 

Any jerk with a grudge could literally attack any store using shopify for hundreds of dollars at a time...

Step 1: Order thousands of dollars worth of product.

Step 2: Refund.

Step 3: Repeat.

This is ridiculous.

[bmarkoe]

Not to mention the the folks that use retail clothing shops as rental sites. Unless you have a really strong policy in place and tag all your merchandise, it will actually cost you money to "rent" clothing to these people. 

[MadspeedUms]

Has anyone not been refunded transaction fees as yet by Shopify? Please let us know so we can know whether this is true or not. 

[mgarland]

Unfortunately, this is correct and has been for almost a year now. Once a payment has been captured, issuing a refund means you will be losing BOTH the ~2.9% transaction fee AND the .30 cents per transaction. This will cover any/all transactions where the credit card has actually been charged. Their excuse is that these fees cover the costs of processing refunds.

Check your financial summaries from Shopify after you issue a refund. The amount given back to you will be less the transaction fee and .30 cents.

As stated previously, please change your payment capture to 'manual'. At the very least, this will prevent you from capturing payments until you acknowledge the sale is legitimate and you are ready to ship out the product(s).

[MadspeedUms]

@mgarland does this apply to everyone regardless of country or payment method? I'm in the UK and using PayPal as my payment method. PayPal already has this policy in place and not refunding the 2.9% transaction fee. Does this mean I am losing out on 2% from Shopify and 2.9% from PayPal?? This is insanity

[mgarland]

@MadspeedUms No, if you're accepting payments through PayPal, then Shopify is not collecting a transaction fee and only charging you the .30 cent per transaction. So for refunds, you will lose PayPal's transaction fee as well as the .30 cents from Shopify. You will not lose an additional 2.9% from Shopify since Shopify is not processing your transaction.

[MadspeedUms]

@mgarland thank you for clarifying.

[MadspeedUms]

If this is an issue with Shopify payments, then just use a third party payment option who do refund transaction fees for returns.

If stripe is the issue for Shopify then Shopify should stop using them as a payment processor and use someone else. This will really damage them and many people will not use them due to this ridiculous policy. I was planning to build another 2 websites on shopify but changed my mind and decided to build them on WordPress.

Does anyone know if they intend to resolve this issue in the near future? It is crazy to think that they can allow something like this to happen

[Me_Bo]

Just some notes to pin to the end of this thread in case anyone wants some quick info:

1) If you use Shopify payments, you will be charged their % fee (2.9%) and 30cents... If a customer asks to cancel their order, or you cancel it for any reason. You will LOSE this fee.

2) If you use THIRD PARTY payment provider, you will be charged 2% by Shopify, and also 2.9% (or such) + 30cents (or such) from third party provider... If you issue a refund, SHOPIFY WILL NOT refund your 2%... your THIRD PARTY MAY OR MAY NOT issue you a refund on their %, depending on their terms. But if they do.. you’re already OUT 2% from SHopify... chances are, it WILL COST YOU MORE USING A THIRD PARTY PAYMENT PROVIDER, becuase you will be paying 2% ON EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION... whatever you may gain back from 3rd party refunds, you’ve lost to SHOPIFY.

3) If you use SHOPIFY payments, and customer opts to use PAYPAL - you won’t’ pay 2% or 2.9%, but you’ll be bound by PayPal’s fee structure and refund policy. Also, you can’t FORCE your client to use PayPal... you MUST enable Shopify payments in order to take advantage of NOT being charged 2% for 3rd party transactions at PayPal.

RECOURSE: 

If you want to stay with Shopify: NONE. 

If you want to switch to another e-commerce platform, if you’re able to find a company with a more lenient refund policy, you will be bound by that OR by your 3rd party processors policies (Stripe for example does not refund fees for refunded orders).

If you want to continue: either we eat these fees (so, if 20% of your orders get refunded, you’re overall cost of sales goes up by less than a percent)

Or you put a clause in your terms and conditions that says you will charge a % fee for any cancelled transactions... and hope you are not losing repeat business, or a potential future customer... because that person will be angry when they ask for a refund and lost 3-5%. 

[techoboom]

Hello,

we have just begun our journey with Shopify, from our first 8 orders we received 3 High Risk Fraud which aimed the most expensive product in our catalog, we realized that Shopify does not return the fee for the Fraud refunds when we received an email with the negative payout amount on these fraudulent orders, this is frustrating because we just started and trying to avoid these types of transactions by canceling them but Shopify does not separate good Refunds with Bad refunds and still charges high fees in relationship to the expensive product prices aimed by the scammers. It has to be brought to on higher levels as these two types of refunds are not the same in both ethical and business clarity perspectives. 

[mike20202303]

I would suggest you to use other platforms. Shopify is charging too much,

[Mayka98370]

July 12, 2022...no change to the "new Shopify transaction fees". 

Leaving them is the only way and there are many companies out there these days, keep shopping around. Shopify just like many other companies over promises, gain trust and users, hooks you then takes it all back when they don't care if 10% of customers leaves them. pure greed. How many times have we seen this happen...

recently paypal which I love bought venmo...broke it by slapping fees on something that was used by people because it had no fees so they now only charge for biz fees but just want a little longer and then will apply the same transaction fees that we see at paypal. I am invested in them and am their customer...they just know (like Amazon) that convenience hooks, give convenience and customers will forgive your greed and unless we all rally together, nothing will change. 

[Jeans11]

I've recently joined Shopify and I regret it.  Newbie sellers be warned!

This so called Shopify policy – has the potential to put small businesses like mine - out of business.  

You’re a small business, imagine the item you’ve sold is returned 3 times before it finally sells a forth time. You’ve got to pay Shopify payment fees 4 times. Yup that’s correct - this is what Shopify do!

 Is that sustainable for an online business? Especially when you have to pay for shipping, even on refunds as per the legalities of online trading? Depending on the country you’re trading in?

The policy is very dangerous to small online businesses, especially ones that are starting out.

On the face of it, Shopify looks fabulous with all bells and whistles. I was totally invested. But once signed up and realise Shopify double dip with their policy on payment processing / commission.  To me it’s simply white collar theft hidden in their T &c’s.

I was hooked, thought it was amazing and stupidly signed up for 24 months and spent a lot of money on the site and subscription.

I sell paintings online have a standard return / refund policy as per legal requirement in NZ.  I sold $1000 for 2 paintings was charged $27.30 by Shopify payment processing, on the same day refunded $500 as the buyer changed their mind about half hour later. Yet Shopify still charged $27.30 on $1000! Shopify have taken a further 5.46% of the sale. Crazy! Huh! The charge should have been $13.65 for $500 sale.

How can anyone afford to pay Shopify fees like that and try to operate a sustainable business model?

What’s worse is Shopify will get that fee again when the item sells.  How on earth can Shopify justify charging commission more than once if – if anyone must refund as per the legal requirements of online selling?

Shopify should only charge on the actual $$ transaction.

Lets say I refund a payment – but Shopify take their fees. I resell that painting, Shopify again take fees. That’s double dipping. They’re taking 2 fees, or more off the same painting….  Yet, I don’t pay GST / taxes twice on it, I pay tax once, when the item sells.

But I still have to pay for postage etc -  that’s how online selling works.

The issue is Shopify are essentially stealing, by not refunding the fee when refunding part of or all of the transaction.

Why? Shopify says because others are doing it – that makes it ok? No it doesn’t.

I cannot afford to pay fees for refunds and Shopify should not charge if an item is refunded. Shopify get their payment processing commission when the item sells.

I can’t afford to pay Shopify payment fees for something I’ve refunded therefore haven’t sold.

It’s insane Shopify brush it off like it’s no big deal. It’s not ok. 

[JosephA1]

Hi there

Shopify charged me 433$ on transactions that were not fulfilled at all as buyers regretted and ask to cancel

we sell high-value items online and that buyer from cananda buy 7000$ item 

you can guess they had charged me 3.9% commission and all the explanations that we tried to explain to the agent did not help, it is stealing !! no other word

433$ lost because the buyer had changed his mind (that ok), but they refused to refund my fees, and we lost it !!!

[dpd1]

Change your settings to 'manual capture' so the payment won't go through
until you accept it. That won't help you on returns, but if you wait
until you ship to capture, it will at least save you on cancels.

[mike20202303]

Is there any way to avoid this issue in the future?

[bmarkoe]

I now charge a restocking fee on all returns. Maybe if consumers get mad
there will be a change. I actually have vendors that I purchase from
charging me the credit card fee if I want to use a credit card.

[Jeans11]

Not the best solution if you're a small business starting out - it's not sustainable.  The Solution is Shopify should only charge commission when an item is sold, rather than on refunds or fradulent transactions

[dpd1]

It's not just Shopify. This has become more of a standard processor
thing. PayPal also does it. They will probably mostly all do it
eventually. Go back to the start and see what I and others recommended
doing as far as gov orgs you can complain to. But the truth is, this
will likely stay... unless some layers get together and find some way to
start suing the processors.