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Just lost a rediculously obvious scam chargeback

dpd1
Explorer
63 0 40

Is there anyway at all to find out the card issuing bank on a card purchase? We waited 2 1/2 months for judgment on what was a ridiculously obvious scam chargeback, only to be told they went in favor of their customer. The order was showing ‘low risk’. The guy emailed me with specific questions about the product ahead of time, using an email address with his full name. I’ve since found the address used other places by him. It was confirmed delivered. I found info online linking him to living at the shipping address. It’s a rural ranch property. I found his twitter that specifically talks about the subject that the item pertains to, so he’s obviously into the subject. I emailed him asking why he did a chargeback. No response. His email worked fine before when he had questions. Now conveniently he doesn’t answer. He apparently claimed ‘fraud’. No attempt to return the item though. Complete BS. Interesting, we just switched from using PP exclusively for card processing. Never lost a claim like this in a dozen years. First one we get here and we lose it, even with a stack of proof in our favor. I realize the bank is the one in control, but just seems like a bit of a coincidence. All of this info was supplied immediately after the chargeback was made. I feel like they had no intention of even looking at it. If they did, it would have been 100% obvious the guy did in fact purchase it, and just made up a fraud claim. Maybe I can get a card from this bank and they can help me steal stuff as well.

Replies 17 (17)
Dallas
Shopify Staff
Shopify Staff
916 61 198

Hi, there.

 

This is Dallas from the Social Care Team here at Shopify.

 

I am so sorry you have had to deal with that. I appreciate all of the work you did because I understand entirely how chargebacks are hard to deal with. Especially when you gave all of the supporting documents to help your case.

 

With this case, there isn't a way to change the decision of the bank. However, I can give you some resources that will hopefully help you if this were to happen again.

 

Shopify has created a free app called Fraud Filter that helps to Flag suspicious orders and helps to create another screen to protect your store from potential fraudulent activity. The best part is that it is free. You can add it to your store without any extra requirements. This app isn't a guaranteed protector. However, it does help to add an extra layer of protection.

 

Another app that I strongly suggest is created by the company Signifyd called Signifyd. They have a guaranteed level of protection with a Zero fraud liability. That means that they will help by reimbursing you within 48 hours of a chargeback.

 

I understand entirely how horrible chargebacks are to deal with, believe me. However, with these resources, you will hopefully not have to deal with one again!

 

If you have any more questions at all, please let me know.
Dallas.

Dallas | Social Care @ Shopify
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TSG
Tourist
4 0 2

Hi Dallas,

 

Does anybody EVER win a chargeback?  I now have a new one, that is a customer who had two orders and the second order had to canceled and refunded as the product was discontinued.  BUT this is NOT the order in question.  They never answered their phone no matter how many times I left messages, have cussed me out numerous times via emails because of the canceled order, I have proof of the order in question that all parts were delivered and emails stating so from the customer.  The list goes on and on, but I would bet my bottom dollar I will loose this case.  "The customer is always right." Ha!

 

What does Shopify collect for evidence?  Do they even try to fight the chargeback?  You can't talk to anyone to what you can provide as additional evidence or even what Shopify submits on your behalf.  This is so frustrating when you know they are wrong!

hmmmmmmm
New Member
1 0 0

As user "TSG" has said, can you ever win a chargeback. 

 

It seems that the banks are taking the p*ss, or is Shopify just rolling over every time.  There has to be more pushback against this as the evidence apparently counts for nothing.  From my experience too, submit a chargeback = win regardless.

 

I'd like to see some answers to the questions that TSG is asking, specifically,

 

1) What does Shopify collect for evidence? 

2) Do they even try to fight the chargeback?

Jason_Beacon
Shopify Partner
250 13 49

Fraud happens many different levels and it depends on the types of fraud, which will ultimately decide whether or not you will win a case.

 

If a CC was stolen and used by a bad-actor and they input all of the real information from the stolen CC like name, email address, etc then usually the CC company will reverse the charges from the merchant regardless of the merchant having the evidence.

 

You can win a case if the banks find that the individual customer is actually filing for a false chargeback claim. We call this "friendly fraud".

 

Banks and credit card providers look at the evidence at various levels to see who they should reimburse the money to. It sucks, but merchants are usually on the losing end of things and its best to look out for suspicious orders before fulfillment happens.

 

I've actually written a small basic article on how to look out for suspicious orders, which i hope will help you to some degree.  https://medium.com/@jason_80572/five-things-you-can-look-at-to-prevent-fraud-orders-from-happening-t...

 

 

Decrease fraudulent orders, stop chargebacks with Beacon. The most customizable fraud and risk management system built for Shopify businesses

https://apps.shopify.com/beacon
TSG
Tourist
4 0 2
Thank you for your thoughts.  

I did all those things you mention in your ebaook and I even had a third party fraud filter at the time.  What frustrated me so was I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone on the Shopify end.  And even when I had email proof that this lady had receive 10 out of 12 items she ordered between 3 orders (I refunded the two items she never mentioned receiving prior to the claim) Shopify still refunded monies for all 12 items.  Apparently proof with emails is not a qualifier for Shopify.  I understand there are bad people in this world, but when you know you are right and have proof, then Shopify should support their merchants.
dpd1
Explorer
63 0 40

After doing some research, I found the problem is apparently their fraud detection. Stripe actually handles the processing for Shopify Payments. Do a search on 'Stripe poor fraud detection'. You'll find numerous articles talking about the less than great job they do at filtering/catching potential fraud buyers. I've had buyers come through as 'low risk' when they've used the wrong address... misspelled their own name... didn't even fill in a full name... I had one the other day where the guy had about 5 typing errors in his info, plus had a thousand mile mismatch between the card address and shipping address. The system put it right through as 'low risk'. I used to have PayPal buyers not have their card go through for mysterious reasons that nobody could explaine. I'm now convinced they weren't put through for a very good reason. Because PP has a system that is way better at identifying scammers.

So it's not about winning the charge-back. Unfortunately, that going to be ridiculously difficult no matter who it is, because the banks basically defend their customers doing this. The difference is made when the processor's system filters out those people to begin with, so they're never allowed to do a charge-back in the first place.

Look into some of the 3rd party online charge-back fighting/recovery orgs. It can sometimes be worth giving them a cut to get at least some of your money back.

TSG
Tourist
4 0 2
Thanks for the feedback!  Care to recommend a fraud app?
iComfyDeals
New Member
2 0 0

@dpd1 I just went through the exact situation as you did, and lost the chargeback. The guy bought multiple items on my stores with same billing and shipping address. After I shipped, he then made a dispute to his bank. The items were delivered and I lost the case. It's ridiculous.

hb2020
New Member
2 0 0

We're losing disputes like this all the time lately. We've never won a dispute since switching to shopify. The tracking numbers always say delivered but the customers claim they didn't get it, file a dispute, get their money back. We're out the product, the money and the chargeback fee.  I don't think shopify is doing anything with the evidence provided. With our old processor, if we could show tracking that showed delivered, we always won the dispute. We never lost before. Something has to change at shopify.

l_t
New Member
1 0 0

anyone found a good way to stop these fraud.

 

it seems everytime there is a chargeback, the seller LOSE.

Jason_Beacon
Shopify Partner
250 13 49

There is no full-proof way to stop a fraud order. Most merchants selling high-risk products use systems that can automatically detect data points that seem suspicious and notify the merchants. Fraud behavior changes rapidly so it's very difficult to build a system that can adapt as quickly as the fraud itself. Although all is not lost for merchants, fraud only accounts for less than 1% of the time. The best way to protect yourself is to learn about your typical customer profile against odd orders.

The rule of thumb is if you feel the order is quite risky, it's better to just cancel the order and move on then to risk having a possible chargeback. Otherwise, you can also opt for signature confirmation required upon delivery so you at least have proof that the item was delivered to the intended recipient.

Decrease fraudulent orders, stop chargebacks with Beacon. The most customizable fraud and risk management system built for Shopify businesses

https://apps.shopify.com/beacon
iComfyDeals
New Member
2 0 0

Well the problem is that the order is not showing at a high-risk category. It's just a normal order. After we ship, the customer file a dispute and win the case regardless of proof of delivery.

Jason_Beacon
Shopify Partner
250 13 49

You can't really depend on the Shopify fraud system to accurately tell you if the order is 100% sure is a fraud. Shopify's fraud system is quite basic and does not fit the need of different merchants. They can also accidentally flag good orders as well. 

Also, winning the case per the merchant side depends highly on how your payment gateway works with your business. Some are easier to deal with while some will always side with the customers. If your store receives quite a bit of chargeback, then I would recommend you find a payment gateway provider that will side with your business. For example, Paypal has seller protection in place if you show proof of delivery.

You can read more about it here. https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protection

Decrease fraudulent orders, stop chargebacks with Beacon. The most customizable fraud and risk management system built for Shopify businesses

https://apps.shopify.com/beacon
monstertuned
Tourist
7 0 5

Shopify has no support. Just found out the hardway with 2 missing ups packages back to back.  Whether it be a charge back or shipping claim you can count on being screwed over and given the run around.  Will be moving platforms.

jacktheripper
New Member
1 0 0

I don't think the merchant will ever win a chargeback.

I also just lost a ridiculous case where I spent lot of my time submitting all the evidence, pictures, text message record that clearly indicate the fraud from this customer and guess what, I lost and the bank even charge me $25 fee ! What kind of POS system is this??

monstertuned
Tourist
7 0 5

I moved to ec wid and use paypal only which provides seller protection.  shop shipping or pay has no support and doesn't care about you. this is one of the worst companies in america. 

hoovdini
Tourist
5 0 0

I had the digital signature of the person, from UPS, on an overnight delivery. They still won the chargeback even though I provided ample evidence like this that he got his package. Signature required doesn't do a damn thing to prevent chargebacks.  Neither do Shopify's responses.